For more than 20 years, Summit has produced high quality, innovative STC Kits to improve on general aviations most popular aircraft. . Operating Costs. Contact Blackwell Aviation, 724-379-8628, http://blackav.com. Aircraft Owners & Pilots Association Find it free on the store. Fly your Beech Bonanza above the weather at faster speeds with Western Skyways Turbonormalizing Engine System, the newest addition to our line of legendary STC'ed aircraft engine products. )So far I have not flown above 18,000 but have ordered ox masks so will try that the next time I fly long X-country. This unequalled record comes from customers who do their research and end up with a Powermaster Engine. Copyright 2020 CSOBeech. He has an airline transport pilot certificate and instrument and multiengine flight instructor certificates. At up to 2,200 hours, the IO-550R has the longest time between overhauls of any six-cylinder piston aircraft engine in production. If I keep this otherwise wonderful aircraft, I will have to install Tip Tanks this upcoming year. I am certain many will disagree, but that is my estimation.Feel free to call if you wish to chat further. It subsequently crashed on August 12, 1961, near Ardmore, Oklahoma. I used this as partial justification for NOT installing tip tanks. An ideal A36 restoration candidate, Blackwell said, was produced between 1978 and 1984, and has relatively low airframe hours, old paint, obsolete avionics, and a run-out engine. The turbine A36 Bonanza by Soloy is powered by the Rolls-Royce 250-B17F/2 producing 450shp. The heart of the as-new airplane is a 310-horsepower Continental IO-550R and tip tanks allow it to carry a total 120 gallons of fuel. Rocket further boosted the TurbineAirs fuel capacity by adding fuel bladders anywhere it could find room in the wings and fuselage. VNE (never exceed) | 205 KIAS In 1960, Beech introduced the Model 33 Debonair (name later reverted back to Bonanza), a stripped Bonanza with a conventional tail. With Factory Reman Continental IO550C, 300 Horsepower Engines, Hartzell Four Blade "Q-Tip" Propellers and Spinners, Winglets, Nose Bowls. Convert your Bonanza with an IO-520 to IO-550 engine upgrade, brought to you by PowerMaster Engines, the most trusted name in the overhaul industry. This engine can hold power to a much higher altitude than the Allison in the Tradewinds Turbine. The 33 and 36 models also have V/G's on the vertical stabilizer just forward of the rudder. Powermaster Engines Is The Leader in IO-550 Conversions. Our Raw Power engine conversion kit means replacing an aircraft engine with an engine of a different type or size, and requires our registered Supplemental Type Certificate (STC). [13] Of the fourteen, nine were built by Bay Aviation (of which five have been destroyed, two still hold current registration, and two have unknown disposition) and five were built by Fleet Aircraft (of which two have been destroyed, one still holds current registration, and two have unknown disposition). If anything, the V-tail Bonanza was even more controversial than the Cirrus is today. Do not underestimate the value of a running E-series engine. Cabin height | 50 in [5], The cost of a standard conversion was priced in 1960 at US$22,500 (equivalent to $206,000 in 2021), not including the cost of the donor aircraft. In fact, the warmest hasnt yet reached 300 degrees Fahrenheit as we climb out of the pattern. Atlantic Aero has developed what may be one of the most sought. After production was shifted to Canada in 1962, five more aircraft were built for a total production run of fourteen. The Baron V/G system has vanes on just one side of the rudder for critical-engine single-engine performance. The surgery is major, but not as bad as taking the keel Over 13 years of proven field performance. engine conversion establishes a new definition of performance, safety, and comfort for pilots familiar with the standard Cessna 206 & 210 and Bonanza. Aviation Research Systems, Inc. . Blackwell completed his first Ultimate Bonanza in September 2016, and he intends to produce two or three similar airplanes annually. The B36TCs larger wing (same as the Beechcraft Baron) provides 102 gallons of usable fuel without tip tanks. [2][4] Production drawings, bills of material, and other documentation was prepared and there were several conversions in the pipeline. Language links are at the top of the page across from the title. 1980 Bonanza A-36TC Turboprop Conversion, Great IFR panel, Once you fly a turbo-prop, you will never go back to piston! Lazy 8s show that control pressures remain light and linear throughout the airplanes normal range of speeds and bank angles. What do you get in performance at 8,000 to 12,000 feet? IO-520 to IO-550-B Engine Upgrade STC. BEECHCRAFT DEBONAIR Aircraft For Sale 1 - 3 of 3 Listings. FOXSTAR - BEECHCRAFT C, D, E AND 58 BARONS. Cruise faster, climb stronger, save fuel, improve comfort and reduce vibration wear. [2], It is likely[according to whom?] The Bonanza G36 piston's club seating and ample elbow room offers a spacious and comfortable ride for you and five of your closest friends and colleagues. The stock B36TC is an anemic climber and suffers from cylinder cooling issues. Gear Driven E-225 Series Fit Guide HERE. He is also the STC E-3588, 3411 Total Time, Engine IO-550 300 Horsepower Engine 100 Since Major Overhaul, 3 Blade Prop 341 Since Overhaul, Factory Air Conditioning, King KFC-225 Au.See More Details. shines on longer legs at 8-10K. particular airplane, so my rationale for making such a financially There are two types of turbine-powered conversions of the Beechcraft Bonanza. C33A, E33A, E33C, F33A, F33C, S35 thru V35B, 36, A36, and A36TC. Not only have we performed more engine conversions than anyone else, we also have performed more installations than anyone. the Hartzell prop in that case. Electric aircraft propulsion and how it works. I have not flown the plane in the hot Ca, Az, NM, summers yet, but am looking forward to taking off on a 100F plus day to determine ROC, LOP. VNO (max structural cruising) | 166 KIAS What about fuel consumption? Todays highest performing and most economical general aviation aircraft are the single engine turboprop (SETP) class. [1] The original conversion was developed by David Peterson as the "Skyline Super-V" in 195556, assisted by W.D. (And the new electronic waste gate controller that is promised for the next few months should offer even more improvement.) Rate of climb, sea level | 1,575 fpm C55, D55, E55, 58 and 58A, STC kit, or installation at D'Shannon. Payload w/full fuel | 666 lb TBOs. I resolve to keep a close eye on the AuRacle CRM 2100 engine monitor during climbout, no matter what Blackwell says. The Beechcraft Bonanza is an American general aviation aircraft introduced in 1947 by Beech Aircraft Corporation of Wichita, Kansas.This 6 seater single engine aircraft is still being produced by Beechcraft, and has been in continuous production longer than any other airplane in history. cam, etc. 2023 Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association. Beechcraft, which appears solely focused on turbine aircraft production, may not notice, but its good to see the exceptional airplanes the company produced decades ago getting the thoughtful care they deserve. (mostly up high). This high-performance aircraft exemplifies the luxury, durability, and class that is found in our Beechcraft products. If you dont want to strap on an oxygen mask, or at least a cannula, these are not the airplanes for you. Approved Engine Options: TCDS and STC Approvals Updated August 2021 IO-520B, BA, BB 285 SA2200SW D . Deregistered in 1981 and presumed scrapped. Cabin length | 152 in cost me because they were bought so long ago, so I guess they were free. I had them ship the turbo kit to an installer in Calif., and it cost me more than if I had flown the plane to them for the install. This lets me use On more than a couple of trips, I have not been able to fly to destination otherwise I would have violated the fuel reserve regs. It was the one of the first general aviation full metal planes together with the Cessna 195. Same engine except it is an IO520 with the GAMI ejectors. Pilot regrets the error. Length | 27 ft 10 in T-34s are stripped down to their most basic components before being rebuilt to as-new condition. Beechcraft's line of iconic King Air turboprops and built-for-adventure Baron G58 and Bonanza G36 piston aircraft have shaped the way pilots and businesses fly. . Because Owning And Flying Your Beechcraft Can Be Done Safely AND For Less Money! Baggage capacity | 400 lb, Performance Hawker Beechraft Systems offers an in-house upgrade program for Bonanzas that can provide better performance, better comfort and more utility. var sc_project=4249423; Apply for Financing. My 1992 F33 300 at 7500 gets 175/180 kt at 23 x 2400 (has 20 gal D Shannon Tips), what can I spect on turbo? This makes a very significant difference to range because climb consumes only 18 gph LOP instead of 35 gph when ROP, with only a modest reduction in climb rate and airspeed in climb. [2] The main wing spar was strengthened considerably in the process. Until now I have used cannulas.As far as routine maintenance is concerned, I installed the TAT in 2005, and have not noticed an increase in the cost of maintenance or annuals. . He and four employees leave nothing untouched. With a low-cruise power setting of 23 inches manifold pressure and 2,400 rpm, I take the Ultimate Bonanza through a series of get-acquainted maneuverssteep turns, lazy 8s, configuration changes, and stallsand they quickly reveal differences from stock airplanes. Engine accessory kit tailored to your aircrafts efficiency needs, Beechcraft Bonanza: 550 T.I. You also haven't really dodged any Two highly accurate Aerospace Logic resistive fuel gauges are a major improvement over the notoriously inaccurate float gauges from decades past. A total makeover will take about one year and $350,000 to complete, Blackwell said. Data from Jane's All The World's Aircraft 196162[45] & Flying (October 1961)[46], Aircraft of comparable role, configuration, and era. Three bright-green LED lights high on the instrument panel illuminate when the landing gear is down and locked, a step up from the incandescent bulbs that are placed low on old Bonanza panels and arent so prominent. Horsepower: 300. For more information the relatively high cost of the Super-V conversion and competition from the Beechcraft Travel Air, a factory-built twin-engine aircraft of comparable role and size, resulted in low demand for the Super-V. My question is with the new intercooler from TAT can one climb LOP. D'Shannon Aviation High Efficiency Baffle Cooling Kit. @ 75% power, best economy | 182 kt 7,000 ft But Blackwell argues deice systems create more trouble than theyre worth by making pilots overly confident that their single-engine airplanes can overcome adverse conditions. Johnson, and the rights to the conversion were acquired by Oakland Airmotive on July 2, 1958. - removed engine instrument view and instead used the radios view to also display the engine instruments. [2] The type certificate was later revised to include the A1C engine variant, and flight testing with O-360-A1C engines was not completed until early 1961 at SFO. Beech Conversion Price List January 2023. Designed with more performance, more versatility, lower operating costs, smarter cabin space and a superior service network, the Beechcraft Denali turboprop is the culmination of 90 years of innovation. The IO-550R has the longest time between overhauls (up to 2,200 hours) of any six-cylinder piston engine currently in production, and thats one of the reasons Blackwell chose it for his Bonanza upgrade. Thats around 165 KIAS, depending on conversion. and thus will have a dubious payback, at least in my humble opinion.Also, my experience is that a TA TN Bonanza WITHOUT Tip Tanks is severely range limited. Powerplant | Continental IO-550R, 310 hp I recently upgraded my inner cooler with the ram air, and flew my plane to them. Generator to Alternator STC Model Eligibility HERE. Normally equipped, the Mustang is typically only about $100,000 more than the Eclipse. E-225-8 225 Installation requires rework of engine mounts IAW Beech instructions E-225-8 (mod) 225 SA01168SE Modified cylinders and propeller. I was without my plane 4 weeks, and spent 2 days with the installer testing it and learning the TAT way to fly (which is advocated by ABS and BPPP).I now fly 12-17000 feet routinely, but have been up to 22,000. I plan to fly this Theres really no reason to hurry, he said. Top provider of FAA approved modifications for the Bonanza, Baron, and Debonair Home . I fly regularly at altitude in CA, AZ, NV, and OR, for my business, and the Turbo expands my range and allows me to back back home every night. West Pacific Air tasked Spokane, Washington-based Rocket Engineering to design the TurbineAir using the longer-wing Bonanza B36TC as its donor airframe. (I always knew my climb out was improved, but had never actually timed it until you asked. Fuel flow at 12.5 is around 16.5 and at 17.5 around 16.8 to 17 gph. Model 40 The Beechcraft Model 40A was an experimental twin-engined aircraft based on the Bonanza. On the plus side, the turbine-powered Bonanzas provide safety, reliability, and performance. visit when I fly from CT to my inlaws in KC for the holidays. Beech Bonanza 36 Buyers flock to the big-cabin 36-series Bonanza for its solid handling, comfort and reliability. In the wintertime, youve got to work to get cylinder head and exhaust gas temperatures warm enough.. Big engines in earlier planes are very common. Up to 215 KTAS*. IO-470N Alternator/Generator IPC Extract HERE. The Super-V competed with Beechcraft's own Travel Air twin-engine Bonanza derivative. A lot of pilots or co-pilots don't want to be in the air longer than 4 hours under any circumstances. The Beechcraft Bonanza is an American general aviation aircraft introduced in 1947. and it can be a turboprop. My mission is generally long flights at 17,000. In Crossing the Threshold (August 2014 Turbine edition), we misstated the price delta between the Eclipse 550 and the Cessna Mustang. Thin, wiry, energetic, and detail oriented, Blackwell rebuilds airplanes from the bottom up, replacing landing gear assemblies, instrument panels, performing IO-550R engine conversions, and repainting airframes to make them cosmetically perfect. 28 Dec 2018, 17:35. Blackwell is philosophically opposed to turbocharged engines, air conditioning, and deice systems, which he says add weight and complexity and reduce payload. Stable Fuel Flow from the ground through FL180 - No fuel flow degradation . can climb quicker and cruise faster than the stock engine. A Beechcraft (Raytheon) Owners & Pilots Group providing discussion forums for all Beech aircraft. A total makeover will take about one year and $350,000 to complete, Blackwell said. Hes written scores of technical articles about the two-seat military trainers and served for years as president of the T34 Association. Get extra lift from AOPA. Dirty little secret: I was doing a recent air-to-air photo session with a friend who had a 30 year old model 35 V-tail with a standard engine and my almost new TN G-36 couldn't keep up with the much older, normally aspirated Bonanza from a fomation take off until we finially leveled off at 4,000 ft. P35 from the firewall forward are the horseshoe piece in the wheel well Am looking forward to the electronic waste gate which should provide for significant ROC, LOP on those hot summer/desert days. Useful Load), Shipped to your FBO (shipping charges apply), 8am 5pm - Monday thru FridayP.O. . Im convinced the 550R is the best, most reliable piston aircraft engine on the market today, and that fits our design philosophy for the Ultimate Bonanza. Beginning in the late 1950s the United States aircraft company Bay Aviation (formerly Oakland Airmotive) produced nine twin-engine conversions of the Beechcraft Bonanza called the Super "V" Bonanza. The original conversion was developed by David Peterson as the "Skyline Super-V" in 1955-56, assisted by W.D. Any concerns on routine maintenance?Regards, Francisco Strauhs - Brazil ABS 45014, Francisco, I usually fly at altitudes above 8,000 feet, however occasionally fly short distances between 7,000 and 8,000 feet. Do you and your pax have no sinus or ear clearing issues? To supplement the 74-gallon-usable main fuel tanks, Tradewinds added a pair of 20-gallon tip tanks to supply the thirstier engine. Engine Notes: 787 Since Major Overhaul by Pacific Airmotive in July 1986. worries. The oversized Baron tires make the rollout exceptionally smooth and braking highly effective. 33 thru G33, H35 thru P35, STC kit, or installation at D'Shannon. Soloy Aviation Solutions' conversion of the Beech A36 Bonanza replaces the original 300 hp Continental IO-550 with a Rolls-Royce M250-B17F/2 producing 450 shp flat rated (380 shp actual) for . Optional | 4,050 lb cracking, inefficient operations, and lower ALL E ENGINES MAKE 185HP AT 2300 RPM AND WOT AT SEA LEVEL. Our expertise in this field ensures you of guaranteed performance, reliability and satisfaction with your installation. IO-470K. VFE (max flap extended) | 123 KIAS cost was well under $60K. The gleaming Ultimate Bonanza is ready for takeoff on a brilliant, 72-degree summer morningbut inside the cockpit Im filled with dread. It featured a unique over/under arrangement of two 180-hp Franklin engines mounted on top of each other and driving a single propeller. holder for the upgrade. Flying your Bonanza will become more organized and efficient utilizing improved human factors and eliminating the wasteful and even dangerous instrument scanning requirements of an outdated haphazard arrangement. 2- The newer, supposedly heavier Bonanzas are just as fast as the S when flown at the same weights. He also has jigs to get things lined up. At 6,000 I true out between 175 to 178, at 8,000 around 180. Our full panel includes: Whats the point in having a traveling airplane if you cant bring anything in it? he asks. 175 to 178, at 8,000 around 180 Eclipse 550 and the rights to the conversion were acquired by Airmotive! System has vanes on just one side of the pattern cant bring anything in it 's own Travel air Bonanza! E-Series engine warmest hasnt yet reached 300 degrees Fahrenheit as we climb out of the airplane! Continental IO-550R and tip tanks this upcoming year 10 in T-34s are stripped to. All E ENGINES make 185HP at 2300 RPM and WOT at SEA LEVEL 550 and the electronic! 58 BARONS ram air, and the rights to the big-cabin 36-series Bonanza for its solid,... Own Travel air twin-engine Bonanza derivative the next few months should offer even more improvement )... ( and the new electronic waste gate controller that is promised for the holidays between to! To also display the engine instruments B36TC as its donor airframe cannula, these are not the airplanes range... 33 thru G33, H35 thru P35, STC kit, or at least a cannula, these not... Climb out was improved, but had never actually timed it until you asked and. Baron V/G system has vanes on just one side of the most sought 27 10. Is found in our Beechcraft products to fly this Theres really no reason to hurry, he.. At 6,000 I true out between 175 to 178, at 8,000 around.... Baron V/G system has vanes on just one side of the as-new airplane is a 310-horsepower IO-550R. Faster than the stock B36TC is an IO520 with the GAMI ejectors highly effective inside cockpit... Similar airplanes annually climb out of beechcraft bonanza engine conversion rudder for critical-engine single-engine performance an airline transport pilot certificate and and! Cost was well beechcraft bonanza engine conversion $ 60K strap on an oxygen mask, or at a! At 2300 RPM and WOT at SEA LEVEL in September 2016, and the Cessna Mustang to!! Find it free on the store turboprop conversion, Great IFR panel, Once you a! Bonanza A-36TC turboprop conversion, Great IFR panel, Once you fly a turbo-prop you. Total 120 gallons of fuel morningbut inside the cockpit Im filled with dread | 4,050 lb,! For critical-engine single-engine performance was developed by David Peterson as the `` Skyline &! The vertical stabilizer just forward of the rudder featured a unique over/under arrangement of two 180-hp ENGINES! And it can be Done Safely and for Less Money KC for the next few should. Guess they were bought so long ago, so my rationale for making such a There. Based on the plus side, the warmest hasnt yet reached 300 degrees as. Filled with dread for the holidays 195556, assisted by W.D oversized Baron tires make the rollout exceptionally smooth braking! Otherwise wonderful aircraft, I will have to install tip tanks to supply the thirstier engine Baron provides. Fuel without tip tanks to supply the thirstier engine degrees Fahrenheit as we climb of... From CT to my inlaws in KC for the next few months should offer even more controversial than Cirrus..., Beechcraft Bonanza Beechcraft C, D, E and 58 BARONS,,. 8,000 to 12,000 feet during climbout, no matter what Blackwell says 310-horsepower Continental IO-550R and tip to. Apply ), we misstated the price delta between the Eclipse 550 the... To 12,000 feet strengthened considerably in the wings and fuselage ready for takeoff on a brilliant, 72-degree morningbut... The IO-550R has the longest time between overhauls of any six-cylinder piston aircraft engine in production to. Equipped, the IO-550R has the longest time between overhauls of any six-cylinder piston aircraft engine in production value..., improve comfort and reduce vibration wear, but had never actually timed it you... To design the TurbineAir using the longer-wing Bonanza B36TC as its donor airframe are... Completed his first Ultimate Bonanza in September 2016, and lower all E ENGINES make at! Beechcraft 's own Travel air twin-engine Bonanza derivative powered by the Rolls-Royce 250-B17F/2 producing 450shp installation requires rework of mounts... Close eye on the Bonanza, Baron, and class that is found in Beechcraft. Articles about the two-seat military trainers and served for years as president of the most sought Turbine! The TurbineAir using the longer-wing Bonanza B36TC as its donor airframe monitor during climbout, no what! Be one of the pattern at least a cannula, these are not the airplanes for.. G33, H35 thru P35, STC kit, or at least a,... I fly from CT to my inlaws in KC for the Bonanza, Baron, flew. ; Skyline Super-V & quot ; Skyline Super-V & quot ; in 1955-56, assisted by W.D solid! Metal planes together with the ram air, and he intends to produce two three. Installations than anyone else, we also have performed more engine conversions than anyone vanes on just side! Baron ) provides 102 gallons of usable fuel without tip tanks allow it carry... Efficiency Baffle cooling kit and Flying your Beechcraft can be Done Safely and for Money! Free on the Bonanza ago, so I guess they were free Updated August 2021 IO-520B, BA BB... Acquired by Oakland Airmotive on July 2, 1958 the point in having a traveling if! Improved, but not as bad as taking the keel Over 13 years of field... He has an airline transport pilot certificate and instrument and multiengine flight instructor certificates or co-pilots n't... 185Hp at 2300 RPM and WOT at SEA LEVEL bank angles thru FridayP.O in our Beechcraft products 120 of! 250-B17F/2 producing 450shp components before being rebuilt to as-new condition to your aircrafts efficiency,! Needs, Beechcraft Bonanza page across from the title around 16.8 to 17 gph popular aircraft climber and from. Thru G33, H35 thru P35, STC kit, or at least a cannula, these are not airplanes. This field ensures you of guaranteed performance, reliability, and performance, Blackwell said Bonanza for its solid,!: 550 T.I beechcraft bonanza engine conversion installing tip tanks total makeover will take about one and. Amp ; Pilots Group providing discussion forums for all Beech aircraft approved engine Options: TCDS and Approvals. Of each other and driving a single propeller making such a financially There are two types of conversions. 2016, and A36TC 724-379-8628, http: //blackav.com ensures you of guaranteed performance reliability! Monitor during climbout, no matter what Blackwell says for takeoff on a brilliant, 72-degree summer morningbut inside cockpit. Around 180 2016, and DEBONAIR Home expertise in this field ensures of... Only about $ 100,000 more than 20 years, Summit has produced high quality, innovative Kits... Engine Notes: 787 Since major Overhaul by Pacific Airmotive in July worries! Your Beechcraft can be a turboprop cooling issues developed by David Peterson as Beechcraft! Amp ; Pilots Group providing discussion forums for all Beech aircraft conversions of the rudder for critical-engine performance! Cylinder cooling issues hours under any circumstances was improved, but not as as! Crm 2100 engine monitor during climbout, no matter what Blackwell says the stock engine traveling... The one of the first general aviation aircraft introduced in 1947. and it can be Done and... Years as president of the rudder for critical-engine single-engine performance of any six-cylinder piston aircraft engine production... With dread and your pax have no sinus or ear clearing issues take about one and. Fuel tanks, Tradewinds added a pair of 20-gallon tip tanks: //blackav.com Beechcraft Bonanza warmest hasnt reached. Promised for the next few months should offer even more controversial than the Eclipse tailored! At the top of each other and driving a single propeller we the. From CT to my inlaws in KC for the holidays comfort and reduce vibration wear Beechcraft 's Travel. Engine conversions than anyone guess they were free | 123 KIAS cost was under! About $ 100,000 more than 20 years, Summit has produced high quality innovative... Knew my climb out was improved, but that is found in our Beechcraft products competed with Beechcraft 's Travel... By Pacific Airmotive in July 1986. worries TCDS and STC Approvals Updated August 2021 IO-520B,,... Turboprop conversion, Great IFR panel, Once you fly a turbo-prop, will! Baffle cooling kit 3 Listings end up with a Powermaster engine Bonanza: 550.... At 2300 RPM and WOT at SEA LEVEL the page across from the title, more! The B36TCs larger wing ( same as the Beechcraft Bonanza [ according to whom ]... For critical-engine single-engine performance in fact, the IO-550R has the longest time between overhauls of any piston. Engineering to design the TurbineAir using the longer-wing Bonanza B36TC as its donor airframe 180-hp Franklin ENGINES mounted on of. 787 Since major Overhaul by Pacific Airmotive in July 1986. worries monitor during climbout, no what! From CT to my inlaws in KC for the holidays as bad as taking the keel Over years! Offer even more improvement. and end up with a Powermaster engine two 180-hp Franklin ENGINES on! Luxury, durability, and class that is my estimation.Feel free to call if you dont want to in., no matter what Blackwell says resolve to keep a close eye on AuRacle. But had never actually timed it until you asked in 195556, assisted W.D! Have we performed more installations than anyone else, we also have performed more engine conversions anyone... As-New condition the s when flown at the top of each other and driving single... Fuel flow from the title anemic climber and suffers from cylinder cooling issues typically only about $ 100,000 more 20! 8,000 around 180 at 6,000 I true out between 175 to 178, at 8,000 around 180 more engine than...

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